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fosterbarry
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 Posted: 01 Mar 2010 0:42 Post subject: |
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| pumpkin wrote: |
.......... Funny but I have seen the same exact behaviour in most "reputable club" races. Don't do this, don't do that..... whatever.........
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Wow! How many of the clubs do you sail with?
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pumpkin
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| Posted: 01 Mar 2010 1:17 Post subject: |
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Well, it really doesn't matter if I do or if I don't sail with any particular club. I'm not sure exactly why you are posing this question, but I am sure there are people out there who agree with me. Obviously you don't but that is your choice.
Maybe the core membership of the club or clubs you have in mind do run fleet races that are run well and are very nice to be a part of, but I based what I have said on the "public races" I have seen clubs or club members host. They usually always use the "NPC" rule as well as other host rules.
If you look at the number of registered players (which is about 160,000), the total number of registered members of all the VSK clubs combined doesn't even come close to reaching that mark. I would take a guess and say that number would be in the low thousands if that many. Not to mention players that are members of 3 or 4 different clubs at the same time.
So what is your point? Can you elaborate on why you ask me that question? Frankly speaking, I don't see how either of your 1 or 2 line comments fit in this topic. Do you have anything further to add?
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fosterbarry
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| Posted: 01 Mar 2010 6:20 Post subject: |
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You're right Pumpkin we don't want to get off topic. It's just when you wrote ..... | Quote: | | most "reputable club" races |
I took that to mean you sail in races of most clubs. That would probably mean about a dozen clubs if you sail in most of them and that would be some feat. That's why I wrote Wow! NP... I understand what you meant now. Sail fast... 
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Jean-Luc
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Joined: 18 Nov 2006
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| Posted: 01 Mar 2010 10:36 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | JHL
... if you'd like a lesson on tyrannies ... |
It is a philosophical subjet with plenty of political consequences. I wanted to point out that this kind of affirmation :
| Quote: | | the natural state of man is to live under tyranny, the natural state of another man is to be tyrannical. |
is not scientific. It is not because the Anscients said the same and History seems to confirm, that it belongs to the universal truth. From my point of view one thing can be true yesterday and wrong tomorrow. There is no definitive statements.
I can imagine what trusting such statements can lead to. It justify the tyrannic actions: since it is our nature, in being tyrannic i just follow the human nature. And the victims fall in the fatalism for the same reasons ... Briefly, wait and see. It is favourable to the tyrans.
I have to admit i can't proof you are wrong, i only give here an opinion.
(The historical count you made and specifically the award you gave to the West democarties is very debattable as well...)
jiel
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JHL
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Joined: 06 Jun 2009
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| Posted: 01 Mar 2010 13:45 Post subject: |
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| Jean-Luc wrote: | | Quote: | JHL
... if you'd like a lesson on tyrannies ... |
It is a philosophical subjet with plenty of political consequences. I wanted to point out that this kind of affirmation :
| Quote: | | the natural state of man is to live under tyranny, the natural state of another man is to be tyrannical. |
is not scientific. |
It is indeed "scientific". It is precisely scientific when the evidence is sound, for evidence supporting a theory converts it to scientific fact. Are you claiming that such a propensity to tyranny then did not and does not exist? For you to pronounce my thesis scientifically invalid is for you to deny simple, recorded, available evidence, after which point the argument is naturally forfeited.
| Jean-Luc wrote: | | It is not because the Anscients said the same and History seems to confirm, that it belongs to the universal truth. From my point of view one thing can be true yesterday and wrong tomorrow. There is no definitive statements. |
Of course there are definitive statements - you just made one: Are you definitively sure there are no definitive statements? No? But you just made one, didn't you, so which is it?
Here's a simple mental test:
"There are no absolutes."
"Are you absolutely sure?"
Likewise, the notion that there are definitely no definitives is immediately questionable.
Two and a half million deaths on average every single year of the last Century - a century in which we both probably spent some decades of our lives - at the hands of those soul's own governments tends to be quite definitive. And that does not include the wars waged by nations throughout that century in the interest of their tyrannically absorbing other nations.
| Jean-Luc wrote: | | I can imagine what trusting such statements can lead to. It justify the tyrannic actions: since it is our nature, in being tyrannic i just follow the human nature. And the victims fall in the fatalism for the same reasons ... Briefly, wait and see. It is favourable to the tyrans. |
Excuse me? I mean the exact opposite than to justify tyrannies and in fact the tone and substance of my clear position on the minor tyranny of a lousy VSK host is to observe the nature of power wielded poorly. Don't paint me with a brush of justifying tyranny - who would defend tyranny? I'm a liberal westerner and not a defender of despots.
| Jean-Luc wrote: | (The historical count you made and specifically the award you gave to the West democarties is very debattable as well...)
jiel |
That figure is hardly controversial, my friend. The scholarly estimate stands at some two hundred sixty two million lives found to have been lost at the hands their government in the 20th Century alone. http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
As to the relative success of Western democracies, I ask you to cite their democides as a metric by which they should be questioned.
The principles of the democracies within which we enjoy relative liberties is that they divide structural power, employ a bill of liberties, checks, and measures, and grant such voice to their citizens as provides them the means to maintain this system and structure.
It is when those structures fail (which they do with regularity) that we see them offending the principles of individual liberties. That is, when they cease to act as liberal democracies they act instead as tyrannical regimes and oligarchies to one degree or another.
We see this happening to degrees today in Washington DC, in the EU central union, and in England, where in each of these cases loud and regular protests are being made against an abusing collective and in favor of the renewed division of powers and the reinstallment of individual rights and choice. It seems that the West (to support my point) has again found that it must struggle to remain individually free.
The nature of man is indeed to either rule or to serve a rule. The nature of man, sadly, is not to observe individual liberty such that that liberty remains unchallenged and unimpinged as a matter of natural course. Democracy is the exception and not the rule.
So too it will go with the relatively minor example that is VSK. Petty hosts are to virtual sailing what the firing squad was to individual liberty. |
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Jean-Luc
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| Posted: 01 Mar 2010 15:15 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | JHL:
For you to pronounce my thesis scientifically invalid is for you to deny simple, recorded, available evidence, after which point the argument is naturally forfeited. |
No, i repeat that i dont deny the historic facts but i refute what you maintain about the human nature as a truth forever. You mix facts with their interpretation. Scientific reasoning is to separate them.
| Quote: | | Likewise, the notion that there are definitely no definitives is immediately questionable. |
Sure, it is why i wrote:
| Quote: | | I have to admit i can't proof you are wrong, i only give here an opinion |
| Quote: | | I'm a liberal westerner and not a defender of despots |
I never thought you deliberatly defend tyrans, it is clear. My posts are not personal and i dont want to hurt anybody.
| Quote: | | That figure is hardly controversial, my friend... |
http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM
I didnt know RJ Rummel, thanks you to give me the chance to know him.
Now, i dont want to go furhter on this part of our discussion because it is usually steril to throw arguments and numbers.
I wish you all the best and maybe cu peacefully on the water 
jiel
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fosterbarry
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| Posted: 01 Mar 2010 22:35 Post subject: |
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| JHL wrote: | | Petty hosts are to virtual sailing what the firing squad was to individual liberty. |
That's pretty severe. I guess with those few despots that roam the vsk seas we can at least live to fight another day.
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pumpkin
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| Posted: 01 Mar 2010 23:19 Post subject: |
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You guys can pontificate all you want about philosophy and politics but you might want to ask yourself....... it is really worth it?
I don't see anything changing with respect to the way the game is laid out infront of us. Until some "magic" (somewhat like Barry had said) happens people will always have different outlooks on how the game should be played.
Live and let live!
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Jean-Luc
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| Posted: 02 Mar 2010 9:50 Post subject: |
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pumpkin
about philosophy and politics but you might want to ask yourself....... it is really worth it? |
Are you joking Pump ? Philosophy and politic make we are human beings. They are our main and nobler occupations. Let them to others and you will never escape from the tyrant's hand.
Have i to clarify that tyranny has nothing to do with the hosters we are very happy to find when we want to play ? (even with their local rules, please host by yourself or leave if you disagree with a hoster)
jiel
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Jean-Luc |
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pumpkin
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| Posted: 02 Mar 2010 21:22 Post subject: |
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| Jean-Luc wrote: | Have i to clarify that tyranny has nothing to do with the hosters we are very happy to find when we want to play ? (even with their local rules, please host by yourself or leave if you disagree with a hoster)
jiel |
Maybe I would leave and maybe I wouldn't. It would be a decision based on MY OPINION.
As far as my question, I was just implying that people might want to stop and think before being drawn into an arguement over this topic.
I will repeat my question and be more specific............
Is this topic really worth arguing over? What is there to gain when trying to impose your beliefs on somebody?
When you think about it, (atleast the way I do), the only thing to gain is an attempt at trying to feed your own ego. Please don't mistake the words "you" or "your" when used in this context as YOU (Jiel). This is not my intention.
There is no end in sight. People will always have differences of opinion. A simple debate is fine but trying to "one up" or get the upper hand in this topic would be useless other than trying to prove a point.
I don't know exactly why you (Jiel) throw more political questions at me. Frankly I don't care. Tyrany in the true sense of the word is a bad thing. Do you (Jiel) agree? If not, that is OK. That would be YOUR (Jiel's) opinion.
I did find all posts in this topic interesting and I would tend to agree with both Jiel and JHL with respect to some aspects of what both have said.
In the end...... opinions are like ***holes, everybody has one. 
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I will give you another of MY OPINIONS............
Since this topic started with the new "2PK " rule and then drifted a bit to include the "NPC" rule as well as some hosts and clubs tendency to use a few of their own rules, this might be "on topic" in somewhat of a humorous way.........
This is a screenshot of VSK Russia's antibot registration protection on their registration page. Take a look at the question at the bottom that you must answer correctly to successfully register.......
IMHO all clubs that advertise events and host fleet races should adopt such a registration process.
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Jean-Luc
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| Posted: 03 Mar 2010 10:58 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | PUMPKIN
When you think about it, (atleast the way I do), the only thing to gain is an attempt at trying to feed your own ego. |
Yep, i agree knowing that some scholary language theories state that the adult's speaking mecanisms are very similar to the early babling. But i cant close my mouth and will continue to chat because i like that and because its my nature. On the other hand, i disagree, it is not the only thing to gain, i think that is a way to share ideas.
| Quote: |
PUMPKIN
There is no end in sight. People will always have differences of opinion. A simple debate is fine but trying to "one up" or get the upper hand in this topic would be useless other than trying to prove a point. |
Yes. Have i tried to impose any point ? If yes, sorry that wasnt my purpose.
| Quote: | PUMPKIN
I don't know exactly why you (Jiel) throw more political questions at me. Frankly I don't care. |
Haha, it was not for you Pumpkin but for JHL. Sorry.
| Quote: | PUMPKIN
Tyrany in the true sense of the word is a bad thing. Do you (Jiel) agree? |
I do.
CU friend,
jiel
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Jean-Luc |
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pumpkin
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| Posted: 03 Mar 2010 15:41 Post subject: |
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| Jean-Luc wrote: | | i cant close my mouth and will continue to chat because i like that and because its my nature. |
I know exactly how you feel!
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