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Very Crankie Yankee
Amiral


Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 347
Location: http://freeworldyachtclub.net

PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 16:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hylis wrote:
VSK has now an annual fee to play with the paying version. If it goes well, we will be able to make updates or new sailing games. But I will make no promises to players.

So, as long as I don't know the revenues, I can tell nothing. And, at the moment, there is still a lot to pay on past development. This is also a very basic reason for asking 35€ in one year.


As far as what you CAN tell us......... What if it doesn't go well? Will you refund the annual subscription fee or will people be paying for the "past development"?

Hylis wrote:
Anyway, this question will be raised again in one year I suppose.


Hylis wrote:
the year start at first connect with the patch


People will obviously have different patch upload dates but what is the date as of which you will decide if VSK is no longer a productive venture for Nadeo? If and when this date arrives will anybody that has paid an annual subscription get a refund?

I think the problem with getting more people to switch to the patched "pay" version in the long run will be because you can't be definative about the end results. Most people will not want to give Nadeo money for something that might not come to fruition nor will they want to pay for something they already have. It is understandable that you can't predict the future but the fact that you are not giving us a clear and concise outcome either way seems to be the biggest issue revolving around the patched version. Most people will pay the subscription if and only if they know exactly what they are getting.

It seems to me that you are doing almost everything you possibly can to make this work but in my opinion you should give us a definate date in the future as to when you will call it quits, stop developing the game and shut down the servers instead of leaving it up in the air as to when this will happen if it will happen. The way it is now you could keep trying and trying to get more people to buy the subscriptions until the end of all time. Talk is cheap. Show us don't tell us Hylis! I think the biggest problem as far as VSK5 is the fact that this issue isn't clear and people want clarity! You CAN do this for us, or is it that you WONT? There is a huge difference between the words "can't" and "wont"!

The only thing that is clear about the VSK5 online subscriptions is that the communication is very unclear and or not definative! Clear, concise and definative situations receive clear, concise and definative input. You get what you give.

Be honest with yourself and ask yourself if you would pay more money for something that you might not get or what you already have and you will see what a lot of people have on their minds. Many people are waiting to see what happens so they can decide if they will pay for the subscription. If you tell us exactly what we will be getting or not getting and exactly when we will or wont be getting it you will get a better idea of what to expect in the future rather than just waiting to see what happens. You would be doing Nadeo as well as the VSK community a favor by putting your foot down and setting deadlines. Make it happen! Don't just sit back and watch! In my opinion taking the responsibility yourself and being proactive about this situation rather than being retroactive and waiting to see what happens would be best. It will make you or break you but at least you can say you gave it your all. You can always try again in the future if you fail, just never give up.

Hylis wrote:
we will communicate the patch next week, as soon as possible.


On a side note, I believe you had said that Nadeo would contact everybody who has 32AC via the email they used on their account regarding the VSK5 patch and or the online subscription. I haven't been contacted at all in regard to any of my accounts yet and I have a feeling I wont in the future.
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Hylis
| Nadeo |


Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 245

PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 19:12    Post subject: Reply with quote

Min_s wrote:
Ok that's more clear.

I'm not one of these player who support this way of financement. Then, as i like this game, i will made all i could to bring more player in hope that it will delete the fee.

Thx for your patience.


we may make something to increase account duration for people that brings other players in.

very cranky... you have a misunderstanding. The game cost 35€ to play online after one year of use. This is the price. I have nothing to add. For the community, I explained why we were doing this. But since you seem to make this all complicated, just consider it to be a commercial choice. Like when they decide to sell console game at 70€ or that WoW ask 10€ per month. I am not selling "update" The only thing I made so far is to make an update available for AC32 owner... that they will need to pay to continue to use online in one year. You will not find 10 000 players to make the promise that they will pay, and I will not make a promise either. This is just a dynamic explained. Sorry, but I don't think that I have more to say than business explication. Nadeo can be a totally different company in one year, with other projects than sailing and other priority. The best chance that VSK stay in the race with our other project is the new model, but I have no reason to make promise on this project more than another. We made effort in setting up the new model, with all free stuff: update and game. We do our best, we don't sacrifice. That's it.

Cheers
Florent
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Very Crankie Yankee
Amiral


Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 347
Location: http://freeworldyachtclub.net

PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 19:47    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hylis wrote:

very cranky... you have a misunderstanding. The game cost 35€ to play online after one year of use. This is the price. I have nothing to add. For the community, I explained why we were doing this. But since you seem to make this all complicated, just consider it to be a commercial choice.


You always point your finger back at someone who has questions and avoid answering them rather than simply answer. You say you have nothing else to add but will you be kind enough to answer my questions or not? I'm not asking you why you are doing what you are doing. I'm just asking simple questions that you seem to be trying to avoid answering for some reason. Did you ever think that any misunderstanding is the product of your confusing posts in the "economy of the game" and the "VSK5 patch" topics? It certainly isn't just me that is a bit onfused as there are plenty of people who have had similar questions and concerns that have not been addressed by you. This is the point of my posts on the VSK5 online topic. To get a better understanding of what I can expect. Posting the EULA and the SLA for the VSK5 patch as well as the SLA for VSK5 online subscription would help.

This leads me to my next simple question I will ask you....................

Can you post the SLA for the VSK5 online subscription and the EULA for VSK5 patch?
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Hylis
| Nadeo |


Joined: 22 Oct 2003
Posts: 245

PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 19:57    Post subject: Reply with quote

how can you make so big post just to ask a simple question like you say. I don't have them there, those contract are with the publisher, I am sure that you are aware of this, since I am stupid and you are not. I can't even answer simple questions.
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Very Crankie Yankee
Amiral


Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 347
Location: http://freeworldyachtclub.net

PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 20:14    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hylis wrote:
I can't even answer simple questions.


You said it not me! Mort de rire

Now I'll qoute the questions I asked you in my first post as well as a staement you had made on the vsk5 patch topic and see if you can answer them despite what you have to say about yourself. Give it a shot. I'm sure you can handle it. Clin d'oeil

Very Crankie Yankee wrote:
What if it doesn't go well? Will you refund the annual subscription fee or will people be paying for the "past development"?

what is the date you will decide if VSK is no longer a productive venture for Nadeo? If and when this date arrives will anybody that has paid an annual subscription get a refund?

Hylis wrote:
we will communicate the patch next week, as soon as possible.




The questions above are as clear as I can make them. As far as your statement about "communicating the patch", can you elaborate on your method of communication?
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Very Crankie Yankee
Amiral


Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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Location: http://freeworldyachtclub.net

PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 20:49    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, moving on to the liscense agreement......................... This is a question I had asked you about the VSK5 patch which after installing and after a subscription is paid will in effect be "VSK5 online". (This is the reason why I am posting in this thread).

Very Crankie Yankee wrote:

CAN I INSTALL THE VSK5 PATCH AND STILL USE IT ON A LOCAL AREA NETWORK (LAN) BEFORE AND OR AFTER THE FIRST YEAR???????


And this was your answer:

Hylis wrote:
yes


Here is the link to the topic in case there is any confusion on your part:
http://www.virtualskipper-lejeu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4124

Now this is what the license agreement has to say about this:

The end user is not entitled to..........................................................

use the Program, or permit the use of the Program, in a network, multi-user arrangement, including any online use, except as otherwise explicitly provided by Focus Home Interactive and subject to acceptance of the applicable terms and conditions.........................................


Furthermore.................

> In connection with the use of the Program and the Online Service ONLY and subject to the terms of this License Agreement, you may and are granted a limited, non-exclusive license and right to use the software that forms part of the Program and the Online Service to create and share your own content as described in this License Agreement. The applicable parts of the Program and the Online Service may only be used for creating and sharing content, materials, creations, modifications, improvements, adaptations, comments, postings, messages and communications made to or using the Program and Online Service ["Online Content"]. To be CLEAR you may not use, deal in or do anything in relation to the Online Content outside of the Online Service.

To me that sounds like people can't legaly use the Program (VSK5) on their own server. You said we could. Correct me if I'm wrong but this seems like the tactic Nadeo is using to get people to buy the subscription for online play rather than leave the choice to use it on their own servers.

Now........ if people are going to pay for an online subscription and can't legaly use the Program on their own server, why is the LAN (Local Area Network) option still available?

This is what you had to say about the LAN system in the past:
Hylis wrote:
If we fail, there is still the virtual lan system. This is Nadeo view of the case and this is maybe the best I can give you unless other party get into the discussion and go more legal.


Maybe you should have said, "if we fail, there is the LAN system that you can't legaly use". But that would be another paradoxical statement, of which you have made many, if this is in fact true.

This is where I believe the problem with getting more people to install the patch lies. I believe that people will not install the patch and pay for an online subscription if you can't garuntee in writing any length of online service as well as it might be illegal to host VSK5 on your own server.

Why in the world do you think people will pay for an online subscription that might not have online service at any given time in the future? The license agreement is very vauge in respect to the "Online Service".
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Last edited by Very Crankie Yankee on 18 Oct 2008 21:29; edited 1 time in total
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admiral
Amiral


Joined: 27 Oct 2003
Posts: 339
Location: Nederland

PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 21:11    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haven't you read the EULA when you installed the game?

Maybe better go an install it again and then read it.

Short version, and please remind yourself i am not a lawyer!

You only get the right to USE the software as is.
NADEO can turn of the online-server at any time.

So you have no right to updates nor patches, and no right to on-line gaming.

I took the time to read the license even if i don't remember it all anymore.
I don't think un-constructive discourses are going to do anything for me and any other person who payed the full price for being able to have some fun.
All i'm hearing NADEO say is that long as they can live with it they'll support (updates, patches, online-server). If NADEO can find a way to live with it, why are you moaning?
Everything above 3 x download, or a DVD in a box, is something you can't fight over in a court of law (ask your lawyer, i'm not a lawyer!) so stop pretending you have right to more then that.

And i do think that moderators should close announcements for silly discussions, or move these discussions to their own thread.

Thank you.

PS: the online content the EULA revers to in your quote are the boat skins, avatars etc.
Again, call your lawyer, i'm not a lawyer!

PS2: The LAN connecty revered to is simply the Local Network function in vsk. However when you are capable of setting up a virtual private network you than can use the Local Network function for online-gaming on the Internet. If you google around a bit you should be able to find the right pointers. I know it works for us very well on days Nadeo's servers are down for maintenance. Again I'm not a lawyer yo you'll have to ask your lawyer if you are allowed to. ( @ cranky I am a little bit p**d here so you don't have to bother asking me how it's done. )
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Very Crankie Yankee
Amiral


Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 21:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

admiral wrote:
You only get the right to USE the software as is.
NADEO can turn of the online-server at any time.

PS2: The LAN connecty revered to is simply the Local Network function in vsk. ( @ cranky I am a little bit p**d here so you don't have to bother asking me how it's done. )


Nobody in their right mind or who has been educated about the license agreement would pay for an online subcription that doesn't come with a garunteed amount of time that the servers will be up and running. Yes, Nadeo has the right to shut down the servers but why would you want to pay for something you quite possibly wont be getting at any given time in the future? That has to be the biggest issue in regard to people not wanting to pay for the VSK5 patch, not how much it is. The amount of money is irrelevant.

It certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out how to use the LAN function. After all, you say you have done it! Well done! Hats off to ya mate! Give yourself a pat on the back chap! Roulement des yeux

And by the way, you don't have to install the software to read the license agreement, hence the "I agree with" or the " I don't agree with" the terms requirement. Clin d'oeil
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Very Crankie Yankee
Amiral


Joined: 05 Aug 2008
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Location: http://freeworldyachtclub.net

PostPosted: 18 Oct 2008 22:04    Post subject: Reply with quote

admiral wrote:


I took the time to read the license even if i don't remember it all anymore.


PS2: I know it works for us very well on days Nadeo's servers are down for maintenance.


Funny you should say you can't remember what the license says and then you know the LAN system works very well. Completely uneducated statements of yours! In fact, they are downright idiotic!

You must have overlooked or forgot about this little piece of information in the EULA........................

Very Crankie Yankee wrote:


The end user is not entitled to..........................................................

use the Program, or permit the use of the Program, in a network, multi-user arrangement, including any online use, except as otherwise explicitly provided by Focus Home Interactive and subject to acceptance of the applicable terms and conditions.........................................


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CANKnot
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Joined: 09 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2008 4:18    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Nobody in their right mind or who has been educated about the license agreement would pay for an online subcription that doesn't come with a garunteed amount of time that the servers will be up and running.

Apparatenly there are tens of millions of them. From the World of Warcraft EULA (emphasis mine):
Quote:
6. Termination. This License Agreement is effective until terminated. You may terminate the License Agreement at any time ... Blizzard may terminate this Agreement at any time for any reason or no reason. In such event, you must immediately and permanently destroy all copies of the Game in your possession and control and remove the Game Client from your hard drive. Upon termination of this Agreement for any reason, all licenses granted herein shall immediately terminate.

9. Duration of the "On-line" Component of the Game. This Game is an 'on-line' game that must be played over the Internet through the Service as provided by Blizzard. You understand and agree that the Service is provided by Blizzard at its discretion and may be terminated or otherwise discontinued by Blizzard pursuant to the Terms of Use.

And from the terms of use
Quote:
Blizzard may terminate this Agreement with or without notice by terminating your Account.

So Blizzard can screw its users whenever it wants. The warranty also inlcudes the usual language that Blizzard is under no obligation to provide patches, fix bugs, or that World of Warcraft is "fit for any purpose". Every online game will have a similar license.

Quote:
To be CLEAR you may not use, deal in or do anything in relation to the Online Content outside of the Online Service.

I take this to mean that people can only connect to the Nadeo servers (the online content) with VSK and people aren't allowed to deploy VSK server "clones". This would not include running a server on a VPN or LAN as the people are not accessing the "online content". It would be pretty silly (and unenforceable) if the EULA prohibited something that the game clearly allows.

Quote:
You must have overlooked or forgot about this little piece of information in the EULA

I don't have the license handy, but if there is language like that then there will also be language that explicitly states what people ARE allowed to do.

Quote:

Very Crankie Yankee wrote:
CAN I INSTALL THE VSK5 PATCH AND STILL USE IT ON A LOCAL AREA NETWORK (LAN) BEFORE AND OR AFTER THE FIRST YEAR???????

And this was your answer:
Hylis wrote:
yes

I don't know how much clearer Florent can be. Just save that post and if you ever get sued for running VSK on a LAN after the year expires you have a "Get out of jail" free card.
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Very Crankie Yankee
Amiral


Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 347
Location: http://freeworldyachtclub.net

PostPosted: 19 Oct 2008 20:09    Post subject: Reply with quote

CANKnot wrote:

I don't know how much clearer Florent can be. Just save that post and if you ever get sued for running VSK on a LAN after the year expires you have a "Get out of jail" free card.


That is exactly why I have been harping on this subject regardless of what anybody has to say about it. I like to have all my ducks in a row. No loose ends is a beautiful thing. Nadeo certainly can't say the same thing as we all can see. Clin d'oeil


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Trev
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Joined: 10 Nov 2005
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PostPosted: 19 Oct 2008 20:53    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh shut up very cranky yankee, go and dig yourslf a very deep hole and bury yourslf in it.
Sourire
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Very Crankie Yankee
Amiral


Joined: 05 Aug 2008
Posts: 347
Location: http://freeworldyachtclub.net

PostPosted: 19 Oct 2008 20:58    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trev wrote:
Oh shut up very cranky yankee, go and dig yourslf a very deep hole and bury yourslf in it.
Sourire


LOL Thanks for the advice but no thanks. It this all you have to say? Be careful who you mess with my friend. I'll have you by the balls next. That is if you have any! Clin d'oeil
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GibboAus
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Joined: 01 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2008 1:40    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've read this thread a few times now and these couple of lines sum it up for me and make it clear.

Hylis wrote:
I am not selling "update" The only thing I made so far is to make an update available for AC32 owner... that they will need to pay to continue to use online in one year.
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Hylis
| Nadeo |


Joined: 22 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: 21 Oct 2008 9:45    Post subject: Reply with quote

exactly. I would add that the update is free now.
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